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Golden Compass Controversy
Submitted by Rolf on 22 November, 2007 - 17:02
The Toronto Star reports that The Halton Catholic school board has pulled Phillip Pullman's book, The Golden Compass, from the libraries of schools in Halton County. Apparently school board trustees received a complaint that, in an interview, Mr. Pullman admitted that he is an atheist. The complaint also includes the claim that The Golden Compass is anti-religious.
- Pullman has made controversial statements, telling The Washington Post in 2001 he was "trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief." In 2003, he said that compared to the Harry Potter series, his books had been "flying under the radar, saying things that are far more subversive than anything poor old Harry has said. My books are about killing God."
Well, I suppose "killing God" is pretty anti-religious. But then again, as I am anti-religious too, I have no problem with children reading age appropriate anti-religious books. I see no reason for them to be banned. Let's read what others have to say about the issue. On the Star's Voices page, the vast majority of comments criticize the Catholic board for banning Pullman's work. It would seem that a good number of respondents are somewhat less than happy that a publicly funded school board should be censoring books based on religious issues. A number of commenters go as far as to suggest that Catholic schools should no longer be taxpayer funded. But here's my favourite comment:
- There's nothing wrong with promoting atheism to children. I am atheist and so are my children. Why is it always okay to write books promoting religion to children but not my beliefs? I am one mother who gets just as upset at having religion pushed on my kids.
Yes, it would seem that promoting religion to children is okay, but just try to promote atheism and the noise from the self-righteous begins.
Update: Nov 23/07
It would seen that the ban is beginning to spread like a wildfire through dry brush land. Now the Dufferin-Peel Catholic board is reviewing The Golden Compass due to the concerns of the neighbouring Halton board. Will Toronto be next? York? Durham?
The banning of the book has spawned a number of Letters To the Editor in the Toronto Star. I particularly like this one:
- It's a shame and something of a travesty that one complaint can lead to the removal of any book from school libraries. May I suggest that the shelf space formerly occupied by The Golden Compass be filled with copies of Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion.
Perhaps The God Delusion should become mandatory reading for all Catholic school students in Ontario.
- 5386 reads
Normally I refrain from
Normally I refrain from posting comments on topics such as these but I have gotten to the point where enough is enough. While I respect everyones right to belive what they wish I grow weary of hearing religous groups condeming books because they believe that they will "Lead their childern astray." To these people all I can say is to educate your childern. While I am no longer a "Christian" I have allowed my childern to experience that religon and still do to this day so please do not attack me on that front.
As far as the Christian God being the one true God ( Note the capatialization of God is because I choose to respect others beliefs) and worship of anything else as satanism is a joke. For those true Christians out there read your bible closely cover to cover instead of the select out of context passages that you preacher tells you to and you might be surprised to find that God and Satan are one and the same entity just merely different facets of the same. And yes I can back that up with scripture from the bible if needed but I challenage you to find it on your own.
As far as all the Lucifer nonsense again read your bible. You will find upon close examination that the word Lucifer appears once and only once in the bible.
Making distictions between Jewish, Chirstian, and Muslims faith about who is worshiping God and who is worshiping the devil is again silly as all those faiths worship the same God, that is the God of Abraham. So who is right and who is wrong?
For those of you on the whole taking God out of schools while allowing books such as this and the Harry Potter books. These books are professed Fiction books no matter what the author is attempting to convey. On the other hand the Bible is being offered as fact. not a story to be taken as a story but as factual turth. Therein lies the greatest difference. Now had Rowling or Pullman published these books and tried to convince the world that the things depicted in them were true to life things that have or will happen then yes I would have a problem with them as much as I have a problem with the bible being taught to childern as it claims. For that matter as long as the pledge for this country is required to be recited by our youth in school then God will never truly be taking out of the classroom.
I could go on and on but I will leave you with this. Of the thousands of religons in the history of the world both before and after Christianity don't you think that it is a little bit presumptous of the Christians to tell everyone that their God is the only true God out there?
I also welcome intelligent discoure on these topics the key word being intelligent and not emotional.
WE NEED THIS THREAD MOVED!!!!
Who can get an admin to move this thread to the front page this needs more attention!!!!!!
Hmmm
It has been a few days since I have been on.... alot of reading since I put my last smash down on the whole "god" thing..... Where to begin....ohh yea... I will say it again.. I feel very sorry for people who base thier whole lives on a book that was written thousands of years ago and translated hundreds of times. Period.... Someone said faith was believing in something that there was no proof of???? what??? but I thought the bible was proof? you make me laugh.... Jesus Vs David Koresh.... Both lunatics.... just jesus is on a much wider scale... "Jesus" used people for his own personal gain also.. you just dont read about the negatives in the "bible". If you wrote about yourself would you tell people all the bad things you did? no.....
And someone refresh my memory... but isnt catholic a spin off of christianity? so technically being catholic is being christian lol. Being religious can be a good thing.... it gives people something to believe in that is not physical or fact. But 99.9999 % of christians I have met are lunatics... you live your life by faith... faith in things that will NEVER come. Yea there may be an end to the world but I can promise you there will be no trumpets sounding and there will be no people just dissapearing to go be with "god" in "heaven". The end of the world will come from some freaking lunatic with his finger on the little red button and a key. To Quote anonymous up there
"""""Jesus, who taught us followers to love our enemies, to lend without asking anything in return, love our neighbor, stay married to our wives, do not judge other PEOPLE, to forgive, to give to others in need, and not to engage in activities that are against the moral code given to us through the ten commandments, and to not be hypocrytes like the religious leaders of his day. Wow, what a nutcase! Definitely the rantings of a lunatic"""""
Are you serious? Love our enemys? HA! In the history of the world if you are an enemy you are killed one way or another. To love our wives? did you know that 60% of ALL marriages in the world are arranged? yea its true... wrap your brain around that one. Do not Judge other people??? LOL WOW!!!! I think religous fanatics like yourself judge a thousand times more a day than someone who has no religion. You look at people that dont "fit" your religous code and want to change them. Give to people in need????? yea your religous leaders do that well, which is a point I will touch more on later. What are the 10 commandments? Really? You would think there would be parts of the tablets left somewhere after they were smashed? Sounds to me another fanatic used a supposid "god" to quell violence and things they didnt like in a group of people they wanted to control. So yea you are completely correct... the rantings of a lunatic. Back on my favorite subject Priests/Preachers. Number one, I will quote you
""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Read the books of 1st and 2nd Timothy if you doubt this. It says we should be the husband of one wife and not LOVERS of money. We are not to seek to be rich or seek after material things for our own pleasure, but it never says we have to be poor."""""""""""
Are you for real?? hmm so many directions I can go with this.... So mormans with more than 1 wife are evil wrong people??? they still believe in god.... If you are not supposed to seek to be rich or have material things for your own pleasure why (if you are a pastor of a small church) would you live in a 2 or 3 hundred thousand dollar home.... not to mention the ones who really take the cake from the morons that give money to the church and have million dollar homes and private planes.... That money is NOT for the preacher, it is for the community. Thats why there are no taxes for the church. It may not say you have to be poor but let me tell ya... if you are living in a two hundred thousand dollar home and driving a 60 or 70 thousand dollar car you are stealing from the citizens and from the church. If you dont agree with that then you are just as bad as they are. Religous leaders manipulate the public more than politicians do. Millions of morons give to the church every time they go.... do the math.. money equals power.... Why do you think in the bible it tells you that so much money needs to go to the church for an offering/tithes..... see even thousands of years ago preachers were theives.... talk about being a hypacrite.
golden compas
It really is a huge back-handed compliment when pseudo-intellectual, trash like Pullman attempt to deny God by attacking the Catholic church. They know where to direct their hate. And they come at us with everything they've got.
Let me first say that I have
Let me first say that I have read many of the comments on this page and I find most to be attacks on others belief systems and very few to be based on unique and individual thought. I do not consider myself atheist, I am not Christian. In fact, I do not subscribe to any particular religion except to consider myself Jewish because of the traditions passed down to me by my ancestors (many of their more religious beliefs I do not subscribe to).
There is one point I would like to make. Those who write in favor of this book speak about American ideals such as free speech, freedom of religion, the right to privacy (VERY AMERICAN IDEALS). While many opposed talk about the church and scripture and the moral degradation of society. I am sorry if I do not see the connection between morality and Christianity. I do not think that an individual needs Christ or needs God to be a good person. I consider myself to be a very good person. I help older women cross the street or with their groceries, I have always been respectful of others, I believe in equal rights between all of Gods children (he did create all of us according to some), my goal in life is to become a doctor so I can contribute to people's health and well-being every day of my life. Yet, because I support this book about the corruption of power (and yes that is essentially what the book is about), I am demonized.
It is a sad day for this country and for the people of this earth when we define our worlds through doctrine. Morals and the defense of our children's souls are all fears that have been used to prey on us and disrupt us from the REAL truth, that it is human altruism and ingenuity that will save us, not our belief in a church and the powerful people pushing their own agendas that come along with it. If we were created in God's image, then it must be in God's nature to be wrong and to ere as well.
The Golden Compass
The whole of the material sounds more "gnostic" than necessarily "atheist". Pullman has let the cat out of the bag so anyone who would be offended by the movie will be heads up to avoid it.
But what is more interesting is just what "feelings" or "emotions" that Christianity encourages that he thinks are bad. There is always the argument that Christianity encouraged the persecution of the Inquisition, etc., etc. What is not understood is that that was not in the original ideas of Jesus and the New Testament. Those horrible things are the result of cultural christianity and not the true thing.
Christianity has brought more good to the world and justice to its people than Pullman could ever admit. It was Christian sentiment and preachers that started the move to free the slaves in both England and America. I suggest a few of these overly cranky atheists/agnostics just take a look at the movie "Amazing Grace". Maybe that would dull his "Subtle Knife"...
I would be very interested
I would be very interested to see scripture from the Bible (not the Catholic Bible) which says that the devil and god are the same being. That is simply not the case.
Lucifer is a name used once to describe the fallen angel. We certainly don't know his original name, hence why he's called Lucifer, the Devil, Satan, the Enemy, the prince of Lies, etc. All of these names are used to describe the fallen being who is the enemy of everything good.
I agree there is a difference between the Bible and "Fantasy" fiction books such as the ones we're discussig. However the messages being imparted through the se books certainly have religious conotations and over tones, even if they are anti religious. My point is that these should not be allowed if we are not going to allow equal opportunity for other view points to be presented through "fiction" such as Veggie Tales, Chronicles of Narnia, etc. Or, the teaching of the Bible as literature, not as a religious piece. This has also been ruled by the supreme court as legal, but the Anti Christian crowd again wasn't satisfied. We should allow all viewpoints, no matter how presented, or none at all. Plain and simple.
As for the original topic of this forum, everyone has the right to watch or believe what they want. And we have a right to speak to other Christians not to watch or allow their children to watch it. We also have the right not to have our children subjected to material that we find subversive or harmful. Just like you have the right to not have your children exposed to things that are against your beliefs.
As for thousands of other belief systems in the world, well yeah there were. But that doesn't make them the truth. Just like we thought the world was flat for thousands of years, too. Didn't make it right. I see the proof in the pudding so to speak. If you compare our culture and quality of life, and that of other Christiaqn based societies, with those of other faith based societies, I'd say the truth wins out. God Bless
Shouldnt you be
Shouldnt you be in church right now throwing your money away to the corrupt, theives that preach "gods" word?
This goes for any "christian" reading this within the next 30 to 50 min.
Ok I won't use the catholic
Ok I won't use the catholic verison of the bible although it always strikes me as a bit odd that people have a problem with this bible or that bible. Truth is the first bible was a catholic bible. If you open any KJV of the bible you will see a notation that reads " As edited and revised by King James" or something similar to that effect. My point is how can you be sure the bible you are reading is the correct version unless you yourself translate the original documents. To be fair if you do this then you should also make an honest attempt to find all the documents from that period. But I digress from the main question of scripture. For this purpose I am using a KJV published in 1958 although you can find the same text in any KJV bible.
2 Samuel, 24:1 - "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."
later in the bible come the Chronicles which is a condensed version of the histories retelling the same stories from earlier parts of the bible. It is here that we find the reference I mentioned.
1 Chronicles, 21:1 - "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."
Note in the frist passage the Lord made David count Israel and in the second it was Satan. Therefore if the bible is to be believed then God and Satan are one and the same.
For those that will say that this was two different time periods read the rest of each chapter and you will find that they both tell the exact same story.
Further if you really read the story you should be shocked to see the end result. I will sum it up for you.
God tells David to count the number of followers. This is a sin to do this but David has no choice and does it. Of course because it is a sin Israel must be punished and so God gives David a choice of 3 punishments. David cannot choose and so leaves it up to God. God decides that a famine is in order and so causes one. This results in the death of 70,000 men.
Seems to me God wanted an excuse to lower the population of Israel. That is just my take on it so I ask you to read the stories yourself and make your own judgement.
As far as proof that any one religion is the "TRUE" religon, I have as of this date not seen any true proof for any of them. Religon is based on faith which means that you follow not because of proof but because of belief. I commend you for sticking to what you believe but belief that you are correct does not prove that you are. Show me true proof and I will consider re converting to the faith I was raised in. Until then I will continue to believe what I do and wish you well on your own road of belief.
The Constitution and The Compass
Being an Atheist, I couldn't agree with you more. I ask, why to the theists of this country, in defience of the Constitution of the USA and the very words of their messiah [Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's and give to God that which is God's.]insist on acting very non-religous and nearly down right treasonous when it comes to atheists? At this time of year, how many of them have a plastic Santa Claus and how many killed healthy living pine trees, a symbol of ancient paganism, to celebrate the very, very in your face commercial desicration of the "virgin birth" of their saviour? [And not the first in religous history by the way.]
And we need not bring up the deplorable situations that never end in historical(?)"Garden of Eden", where the Tigris and Euphrates meet and "The Holy Land!" If anything we should stand at the pulpit and shout "Damn you and your Preposterous Myths!" that they cry over with maudlin fakery and condescend to us with their pompous, self-righteous indignation as they hiss the word "atheisssst!" They are the serpent that suffers from mass hysteria whipped up by their leaders to create a feeding frenzy for the press.
It is the same pride and concieted "truth" that brought down the WTC towers and flew into the Pentagon and destroyed the lives of those innocent people in a field in Pennsylvania. "Oh but we're different!" Sure.
crhistianity is the way the
crhistianity is the way the truth and the life, Jesus Christ of nazereth ,IS the only way that God speaks to anyone,Jesus' words are life and health to all the hear Him and believe what He says. No christian could ever, ever, truely exspect anyone that does not believe God is, or that He rewards those that diligently seeks Him, to know one iota of love that God calls all His children to walk in. Righteousness, peace,and joy in the Holy Ghost is only for those that believe on Jesus and have been born again, by His Spirit, and continue to walk in Him, by obedience to His words that He spoke to us in the Holy bible, and by the many infalible proofs that He has displayed through His body ( those who have called on the name of Jesus and that have been born again,By His spirit ) since His death, burial and resurrection 2,000 years ago. History, IS ,HIS STORY, and Jesus will come back again to this earth and Himself shall rule from Jerusalem and His Christians shall love and adore Him forever and ever.Christianity is, Good will ,willing good, and noone that is not being led by the Holy Spirit is walking in good will.Basically all who have not received the born again exsperience of the holy spirit, by the Son of God, Jesus Christ, from God, Jesus' Father,could ever have a clue as to what real ,righteousness,peace and joy is .Sadly we Christians think those who are not Christians,should know something of being unselfish and good willing, when in reality all those who are not Born again by OUR CREATORS' Holy Spirit,are ever once unselfish in anything they do and are blind to the fact that they are in total darkness to the fact of how lost they are to the way we were created BY GOD, TROUGH HIS SON JESUS,to live in Him. Jesus is the Way we are to live and He is the Life we are to lead, and Jesus is the Truth that sets us free from our spiritual deadness , blindness,and self centered lost estate
Topic?
Stick to the topic please Clint. I have been judicious in not hitting delete when I see posts like yours (I haven't deleted any in fact). I would very much like to delete your comment as it ads absolutely nothing to what anyone has to say and is incomprehensible to boot.
However, I think I'll leave it for posterity so that anyone who reads it can get a real understanding of the absolute drivel the so many fundamentalists believe in and ramble on about given half the chance.
I can quite well imagine that other Christians reading your comment are embarrassed to and would rather I delete it--you are doing your Christian brethren a disservice.
Anything to say about The Golden Compass?
Wow...
Ok, I'm about to play the devil's advocate for you. From reading what you said, you just made Jesus look selfish. What with all the He and His and such forth. Wasn't Jesus supposed to be "I am here to serve you"? No the other way around. Stop making Jesus/God look bad. If you're going to rant to someone(Which I don't recommend, you extremist.) don't make the person you're defending look worse. Some one else is doing that for you.
As for your comment about
As for your comment about 1st and 2nd Timothy, that was directed originally towards your claim that Christian Leaders are not supposed to be married and to stay poor. The Bible clearly allows for overseers and elders to get married. That was my point. Please keep your arguments in context. And marriage is supposed to be between 1 man man and 1 woman. The vast majority of our society, even non christians agree with this.
As for money not being for the preacher, the Bible also tells us that those who preach the gospel deserve to make their living from the gospel. In other words, a portion of the money taken in by a congregation is allowed to go to the preacher. I will agree that there certainly is a sense of reasonableness that should be maintained. Obviously no-one needs hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cars or other such luxuries, and there certainly is better thngs that that ministry money can be used for. But who are you to look at what someone has and call them a crook. How do you know where this person is getting their money from. Just because he may get some pay from the church does'nt mean he gets all of his money from the church. I know many pastors who have other legitimatel sources of income.
Might I recomend that if you're going to argue scripture, keep your arguments in context and at least read the Bible before you present your argument. Most of your arguments are so far off base it is even hard to respond to them. God Bless!
Recommend what?
Quoting Sean:
I recomend that if you're going to argue scripture, keep your arguments in context and at least read the Bible before you present your argument. Most of your arguments are so far off base it is even hard to respond to them.
Convenient way to sidestep the issue of proving God even exists. Argue about the finer points of the Bible, ignoring the glaringly obvious question that you can't answer.
Also, jay has been pointing people at the topic of this blog entry, it isn't about Timothy, or Luke, or any scriptural interpretation. The topic is about banning fictional materials in the classroom for fear of offending Christians. I recommend sticking to that and not getting off base and engaging in straw man arguments.
So since the Bible is fiction, we should ban that too, since it can damage a child psychologically more than any harry Potter can.
The Bible is finction too, so it should be banned as well according to your reasoning.
I'm not sidestepping
I'm not sidestepping anything, I'm rebutting statements made against my faith and and the leaders in my faith with the words that dictate that faith. And no, I'm not going to waste time trying to convince someone that God exists who is bent on not believing it. My point is if you're gng to make blanket statements about Christians and Christianity as a whole and you're going to use th eBible as your argument, then at least read the bible to make sure it is in line with what you are saying. That's like me trying to argue with Jaqy about the accuracy of radiometric dating when I know very little about the process.
I have never argued to have the Bible in the classroom. My point is if you are going to allow clearly anti christian and occultic "fictional" materials in the class room then you should also allow "fictional" Biblically based materials in the classroom. As this does not happen, then your material should not be allowed either. I'll teach my children about God at home, if you will teach yours about witchcraft and killing God at your home. Neither has a place in our schools.
You can't ban the Bible, that's silly
I'm doing a Masters in Information Studies (library science essentially). There is an obvious place for the Bible on any library's bookshelf, and censorship of any book is a very thorny issue, one that is never reducible to a simple yes or no to a ban, or even restricted access.
I for one don't see the harm in having a bible in a school library, and I think most have multiple copies of each testament.
It belongs in the fiction section though.
With regards to your question about more Bible based fiction, isn't the Bible itself enough fiction already? Is there really a defined need for more hate literature on our shelves, e.g. Genesis 38.24 as cited on this page of the Toronto Star?
If you say that Jesus died so that Old Testament morality was no longer necessary to Christianity, then I get to throw out Genesis and the creation myth. A fair trade no?
There is no prohibition on such Biblically informed literature that I know of in any library or school, so that argument doesn't really hold any sway. Just because there isn't any doesn't entail malfeasance.
Also, I recall you mentioning that atheists should send their children to private schools when I said that Christians should do that themselves. Since a secular education does not endorse God in one way or another, I think you've reinforced my point that Christians should have to pay for the privilege to inculcate their children with their own particular beliefs.
Atheists aren't making the argument for God though, and no education that I know of is predicated upon denying God's existence. As such, no one should have to pay for the privilege to not believe and have a secular education.
you sad little man
Please quit generalizing you should come and see our priest in our town. He was recently in a car accident and totaled his car. We as a congregation are raising about 2000.00 to get him a nice used one. Far from 60,000 or 70,000. Our priest gets a small allowance from our local church and the rest he has is from our generosity,a good thing. Let me continue you talked about judgement,it says judge not least ye be judge. I'm not sure but i don't think that says don't judge. If you read it it says don't judge because in your judgement you will be judged too.So if you are not afraid of that judgement then you can judge.I also want to tell you I give to my church because I have what i have through the grace of God and because of that grace I give so my church and the school that it runs can continue.My catholic church treats everybody equal as they can if you give nothing you are welcome to worship in our church if you give alot you are welcome to worship in our church.Our school though have other stipulation and those are there to prevent those who wish to educate their children in a religious setting from not footing their share of what it cost to run the school its only fair a school isn't cheap to run. The last issue I wish to approach is our priest and all their indisgrestions every organizations have good and bad people in them and the bad ones go to great lengths to cover their sins and those priests are disgraceful and in my eye unworthy of earthy forgiveness. My chuch was wrong in their cover up and their reasons are hollow at best but all of those thing are works of individuals and not the true work of the church and sorting that out is simple.Iclosing this I would just like to wish you and yours and very merry chistmas and a happy new year and if that offends you I'm sorry because I celebate christmas and the new year and I have no idea what the holidays are. Peace unto you
"There's nothing wrong with
"There's nothing wrong with promoting atheism to children. I am atheist and so are my children." Ever thought about letting your children choose?
I didn't know there were so many intolerant morons out there like the people here.
Keep removing God from everything if you want but please don't complain when it comes time to reap what you've sown.
Intolerant Morons?
It's hard to take anyone seriously who starts a conversation with name calling! By your comment, I assume that you are Christian. Is name calling the Christian way?
yeah im sure that your kids
yeah im sure that your kids chose that for themselves.....a kid is always wanting to be like their parents and almost always tries to follow in their footsteps. you are not only ruining your own life but your kids too. im sure they will thank you for it later in life!!!!!!
The Kids
Classic theist post. "Ruining"? How? And just what is it that assures you she is ruining her own life? Do you live her life? Are you clairvoyant? Is your beleif True? If so, what is it that makes it more True than Judaism, Islam, Hindu, the beliefs of the existing Native North and South Americans and aboriginals of Australia? Hmm? What makes it more True than all of the myths that have passed into antiquity and believed by billions long dead? But more importantly, what evidence do you have to support your "Truth" and existence of any deity to address this person in the manner of pompous and self righteous affrontery?
Be careful in answering because history is full of tales of what people like you have done to people like us, and its not pretty. And it is that precise reason that there is a Constitution of the USA.
Morons
They're every where. They are the groups that keep the government busy. They are usually simple minded or afraid of things that are out of their norm. Don't be afraid to open up to new ideas. Even if you don't agree. Don't be mad because someone is utilizing their freedom of speech to talk about Atheism, just as someone utilizes their freedom of speech to say how horrible this book is for being what it's about. Just ignore it if you don't like it. And move on with your life the way you want to. To each his own.
????????????
your children choose or did you choose for them. Did you give them 100% of the information they needed to make a complete unbiased decision or did you give them your version of the unbiased information they needed so they make a decision you could live with and if the latter is true then your no different the the christians calling for the boycott of the movie. Lets face it the only difference between us who believe and those who don't are what we believe in ours is God and your is yourself niether one is bad and both of us will survive and thrive on this earth and you will leave knowing you left your legacy and so will I.The only difference is I'll pass believing I am saved and my soul will live on and in that I find solice.
Belief = Truth?
Belief does not constitute truth. You can believe all you want that you are saved and that your soul will live on after death but your belief does not make it true. Many people though the ages have believed in many different gods and governed their lives according to those beliefs. Ancient gods such as Odin, Thor Zeus and Ra come to mind. We now consider these gods as mythical and realize that those that believed in them were deluded. What makes belief in the ancient god of the Bible such that it should be treated differently?
Using my faculty of reason, I live my life concerned with what is in front of me here and now. My sense of reason, informed by my five senses, tells me what is true. And based on the feedback I have received from others throughout my time on this planet, I have come to trust my sense of reason. I suppose one could say that I have faith in myself. Thus, I don't need God, whom I consider to be a mythical figure, to guide me through life. And, I don't need to speculate about the "hereafter". That's fine that you find solice in your beliefs. I find solice in who I am, now.
Have you ever taught your
Have you ever taught your children about God and sent them to church? If not then you have already chosen for them.
and by the way your blog doesnt make sense because your all over the spectrum. It sounds like you dont know what to believe.
"There's nothing wrong with promoting atheism to children. I am atheist and so are my children." Ever thought about letting your children choose?
I didn't know there were so many intolerant morons out there like the people here.
Keep removing God from everything if you want but please don't complain when it comes time to reap what you've sown".
»
Yes
Yes, my children have been to church. I've allowed them to choose for themselves and they have. God doesn't figure very prominently in their choice.
If our blog is all over the place and doesn't make any sense, how have you so readily discerned that we are "removing God from everything"?
Oh, and believe me, I know what I believe and what I don't believe. I think that's pretty obvious to you or you wouldn't be righteously telling me "please don't complain when it comes time to reap what you've sown".
contoroversy over The Golden Compass
Anyone who supports this movie because they are against " religion" or call themselves "atheist" are simply ignorant. If you accept or support this movie for those reasons, you are not atheist, you are only accepting things on the dark side of the Biblical spectrum. A true "atheist" would not accept any thing one way or the other, as they supposedly don't believe in a spiritual deity. This movie is a blatant endorsement of religious practices found in the Wicca discipline of Witchcraft, which is nothing more than indirect Satan worship. If you claim you don't believe in Satan, but accept or encourage your children to read these books or see this movie, you need to go back to school and understand the meaning of "Atheist" and research what you are supporting. The authors own comments speak for themselves. God bless and have mercy on you all.
Thank you for being a
Thank you for being a completely ignorant person. Cause there aren't enough of those in the world.
I'm Christian. I'm friends with Wiccans, and it absolutely has nothing to do with Satan, indirectly or directly. So you should probably do your own research. It's ridiculous that you would even make such a statement.
I read the book, and I did not infer any anti-religious meaning behind it. I enjoyed the story and characters for just what they were, if the author was trying to undermine Christianity and that was the whooole purpose of the book.. it totally didn't work for me. I personally believe that the main purpose of the book was to tell a story and he accomplished that. The book/movie shouldn't be banned, because we have something called freedom of speech and freedom of religion here.
Make it your own choice to see it or not. Enjoy the story for what it is, a story.
The Bible tells us tht we
The Bible tells us tht we cannot drink of the cup of the Lord and the cup of Demons too. I have no hatred or anything against anyone who has different beliefs than I do. But the truth is the truth whether someone likes it or not. Being Christian is not a religion, it's a lifestyle. Simply believing that Christ existed does not make a person Christian. I have people in my family who are Wicca and I fully understand the discipline. But again the truth is the truth and if you're going to call yourself a Christian, don't say it and then defend what Christ died for you to be free from. It doesn't work that way. This movie may on the surface be just a story...but the fact of the matter is that the story is based on Daemon's, magic dust, and other totally occultic themes, mostly from the Wicca discipline. ( Faery Wicca, Green Wicca, white magic, the Black arts etc. all are various disciplines of that core discipline similar to denominations in Cristianity.) The author himself has said what his stories are about. I do not advocate banning books or other literature, but I do feel that people who call themselves Christian should not support anyhting that is detrimental to our culture or our faith. Just like people have the right to read or believe as they wish, so we have the right to not read or believe it. There are only two spiritual sources in the world, and if it is not from God then it is from the devil. Plain and simple. A professed Christian who believes otherwise is not living out their Christian faith, they are only talking the talk. Join a Mormon church or the Scientology, new age movement or start your own belief system. But don't corrupt what Christ died to establish for you. God Bless and I welcome any further intelligent discussion.
"but the fact of the matter
"but the fact of the matter is that the story is based on Daemon's, magic dust, and other totally occultic themes, mostly from the Wicca discipline."
Except you forgot to read the series before posting. The Daemon's are people's subconscious and their conscience, the "magic dust" is goodness that is lost from someone when they sin, and many of the "occult themes" refer to christianity.
If anything in the book is against christianity, it's the fact that the christian church in the book is commiting horrible human rights violations through the whole series. You know, to illustrate what the christian religion has been doing in reality, albeit, in a slightly more dramatic form?
I would like to know what
I would like to know what horrible human rights violations the Christian Church is or has committed in this society? I'm not talking about any wacco group ike the KKK or any other gorup who commits violence of tht nature in the name of God. Please show me or inform me what has been done, and show me any Biblical support for it.
My point in my original
My point in my original comment was that anyone claiming to be atheist won't endorse anything to do with any spiritual belief, whether Biblical or Wicca, or anything with a spiritual message. True Atheists won't take a sand on either side because they do not believe in any spiritual deity either way.
As for my knowlege of Wicca, having practiced it myself and having Wicca in my Family, I am well aware of the discipline. The basis of this movie did not just simply come from someone's imagination,it is straight out of the Wicca tradition (some Faery, some Green, some Black Art and some White magic) The author of the original books has himself stated what the premise of the story line is, so that discussion rests.
A professed Christian who defends what Christ died to free you from is not living out their faith. Christianity is a lifestyle which is dictated by our faith in Christ as the Son of God and what he taught. Simply saying you're a Christian or saying you believe that Jesus existed does not make you a Christian. The Bible tells us that we cannot drink the cup of Demons and the Cup of The Lord too. Every one has a right to believe what they chose to believe and I do not advocate book banning or other extreme forms of protest. However if your going to profess to be a Christian, live it and don't be a party to or support things that are directly outside the written word of the God you profess to believe in. Join a Coven, become Scientologist, start your own faith, whatever. Go sit around a fire skyclad and call all the Faeries or Daemons you want, just don't do it and call yourself a Christian...God bless you and I welcome any intelligent conversation (without the name calling please, that also isn't Christian)
By living as a Christian you mean:
You mean that by living according to the written word of the bible you support killing everyone who works on the sabbath? -- e.g. Exodus 35:2
"Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death."
So if you aren't out stoning people to death, or burning them at the stake or crucifying them for working on the weekend, I guess you aren't a real Christian are you? If you were, you'd have to support that which is "directly [inside] the written word of the God you profess to believe in" and go running through the town square every sabbath murdering those people who don't call themselves Christian.
Something to think about? Do tell how Christians reconcile the stated word of God that those who work on the sabbath should be put to death when clearly that does not happen. Moreover, what about priests? They work on the sabbath more than on any other day, and no one stones them to death...
And finally, you are totally wrong regarding the stance atheists may or may not take regarding others' spiritual beliefs. I'm in favour of both the examples you mentioned, just so long as people practising their particular form of spirituality keep it to themselves. That's all. Do whatever you like in your Churches or Mosques or Synagogues or Covens, just keep it there. Simple really.
New Testament vs. Old testament....
When Christ was crucified, he fulfilled all of the requirements of the Levitical laws that you are referring to. Christ himself challenged the religious leaders of his time over this same issue..." what one of you if a goat or sheep has fallen down a well will not rescue it on the sabbath. Then why is it wrong to heal on the sabbath?" We don't offer burnt sacrifices for sins or roll around in sack cloth and ashes either, nor do we stone adulterers to death (look into the woman caught in the act of adultery that the pharisees tried to trap Jesus with)....Jesus came to reveal the deeper meaning of the MORAL code God wants us to live by, not the religious, legal regulations. Through our faith in what Jesus taught, and our obedience to those teachings, we are granted a clean slate and freedom from the legalistic requirements of the Old Testament. As for keeping things inside the Churches or to ourselves, I half agree with you. We should not force our views on anyone, just as God does not force himself on us. However,we are to at least present the word of Christ to people out of love, not judgement. Look at it like this, if you had knowlege of a way to make a million dollars that anyone could take advantage of, wouldn't you share it with at least the people you care about? Whether they listen or not is up to them, but at least you made the effort to improve their life.
I thought Jesus changed all that
I thought Jesus changed all that OLD TESTAMENT belief that if you work on the weekend you will be killed...????
Don't we go grocery or plesure shopping, water the plants, feed our pets, take showers? If they fed their animals in the OLD TESTAMENT, even though they did not know that would be a sin, then JESUS BROUGHT LIGHT: NOT TO WORK IN THE WEEKEND MEANS DON'T DO ANYTHING, BUT WORSHIP GOD!!!!
Completely ignorant?
May God bless you.
Lucifer's fallen angels
Lucifer's fallen angels mated with the daughters of man and fatherd the Nephilim. The mothers of the Nephilim were taught magic and sacred geometry. This practice was the birth of Wicca. Sacred knoladge not meant for man, given to woman by Lucifer and his homies. So yes, Wicca is connected to Satan. And for those who say they found nothing atheistic in the movie, the first is the luer. But it is a trilagy. And I agree that there's nothing wrong with promoting atheism to your children. But not to mine. You say it was your kids choice, but that does not mean that your influance was not a factor. I bet they still want Christmas gifts.
Most laughable logic ever...
Ask any Wiccan and they will explain to you that it is indeed a new religion, dating back less than 100 years in its current form. However, it is based on the very ancient beliefs that dominated many cultures throughout the world during many periods in history, the myths of multiple God and Goddess archetypes and the worship of the turning of seasons, celestial events and earth cycles. It is new AND old. It was not, as you have suggested, some sacred knowledge passed down from the spawn of Satan's angels. Again, Christian explainations for Wicca rely on some BIBLICAL passage. "It must be Satan's doing." Everything that is not of the bible, you want to explain it in biblical terms. That makes no more sense that saying Wicca was taught to the hobbits by Gandalf, or to Dorothy in OZ and she brought it home to Kansas.
The words of the book of one religion can't explain all other religions. It is a logical contradiction. You believe the Bible, wonderful for you, it is your right of course, but don't attempt to demonize other beliefs with some obscure biblical reference about demon spawn.
And while you are handing out your own Christmas presents, ask yourself this...why do you bring a tree into your home and put lights on it? Was there one in the nativity scene? No, but the ancient Druids and Celtic people did believe that bringing a tree into the home during winter, especially one that kept its needles all year, and decorating it with lights, was a symbol of their faith that the sun would return and the earth would be bountiful again in spring. It was Pagan in origin. So were the eggs and rabbits at Easter, which is actually based on the ancient fertility festival Eostara.
Happy holidays!
Ask any Wiccan? What they
Ask any Wiccan? What they think maks no differance. Just as Catholics don't think they are members of a Pagan sun worship cult posing as christians. It is still the truth. As far as Wicca's origin, you are clueless. The tree is all about the winter solstice, the eggs represent fertility, Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th and the Sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday. Is there anything else you thought I did not know? One thing is for shure. Truth is truth and beliefs(mine or yours) can never change that. BTW my ref to the fallen is from The Book of Enoch and not The Bible. 2012 is coming quick, so you should do your research.
"Let no man deceive you"
- Jesus of Nazareth
What if
What if Lucifer pnwed Gord and lied all these years about it? How can a Christian be sure they are worshipping the right higher power?
Good ? Jay. I have ponderd
Good ? Jay. I have ponderd this very thing quite a bit. But Jesus' teachings were about love above all. I am willing to bet that love can only contain truth. But I feel Catholisism is a perverted cult that twist Christianity for it's own ends. And most of the problems ppl have with Christians are directly related to the catholic church. They are out to fool the world.
"Let no man deceive you"
- Jesus of Nazareth
Speaking of Cults
I feel that Evangelical / Fundamentalist Christianity is a perverted cult that twists Christianity for it's own ends.
The Real Perverts
I feel that the real perverts are the people behind any religious organization that attempts to "Satanify" all other religions that stand in its way. I am referring to Christianity, especially, as the "true"(whatever) christians have a knack for talking crap about every other religion. How happy that must have made Jesus uh?
If the separation of church
If the separation of church and state will allow non-christians to prohibit literature speaking about God and Christ from being in our schools, then why is it wrong for us to not want Anti-Religious or Occultic materials in the clasroom either? I'm not talking about educaitonally significant or scientific topics, I'm talking about literature like this or Harry Potter, or anything of a Similar nature. Especially when the Authors themselves have publicly stated what their intents and premises are for the books. Where are our rights in those situations?
You have no rights
You have no rights, except those granted by the First Amendment, which guarantees that no one can prohibit access to such materials, religious or not. In fact, it has always been legal to teach about the bible in U.S. classrooms, even after ABINGTON SCHOOL DIST. v. SCHEMPP.
I might also point out that the bible is the number one book sold every year in the U.S. according to THe New Yorker... Is that not enough?
Ahh Jay my friend, leave it
Ahh Jay my friend, leave it to you to bring up what I was waiting for. If it is un constitutional to limit those books in schools, why is it-unconstitutional to allow a period of time for someone to pray as they wish, or to allow the children to watch Veggie Tails ( an allegorical Christian children's series), or anything else that Christians find acceptable for themselves. The First ammendment is about freedom for people to worshiop as they chose and freedom of speech, for everyone. So if we are not going to get to have Christian based materials in the classroom, then we should not have Harry Potter or His Dark Materials either.
As for the study of the Bible being legal, I am aware that study of the Bible as literature in public schools is legal and constitutional. But school districts would rather squash OUR rights than deal with the controversy, for the most part. There were so many Non-Christian activists complaining about these programs that they just did away with them. Again it was some Fundamentalist trick to bring religion back in the classroom. Never mind the fact that it was and is totally legal and constitutional to study any piece of literature in this way. But our class rooms are filled with Harry Potter and His Dark Materials and manyother similar series that are just regarded as "literature". My point is it should be equal and representative of everyone, or nothing at all. But when we don't want something in our classrooms, we are fanatics. Just doesn't make sense logically.....
Private School
You can do all that in a private school.
If you want your kid to be
If you want your kid to be free from all religious influence then you send them to private school. I should not have to send my kids to private school to have my rights respected, any more than you should have to. Again, now who's imposing whose will on others? If you want your kids to see or learn things like His Dark Materials and Harry Potter and any other garbage, why don't you send them to private school where they can "do all of that"? Because you shouldn't have to and neither should we. It should be equally applied or NOTHING with ANY religious conotations, including "fantasy" witchcraft or occultism should be allowed.
Because you have to prove
Because you have to prove that god exists to teach about god. Do that, and then there will be room talk about it.
Until then, keep in mind that J.K. Rowling and Philip Pullman haven't had anyone killed in their names and haven't had anyone wreak destruction on their behalf for 2000 years like dearest Gord has.
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